Ray Le Maistre, TelecomTV (00:05):
Okay, we are in Copenhagen at DTW Ignite 2025, the annual TM Forum event for the industry. And I'm here with the TM Forum, CEO, Nik Willetts. Nik, thanks so much for joining us. So what must be an incredibly busy schedule here.

Nik Willetts, TM Forum (00:19):
Great to see you, Ray. Great to be here. And as you say, super busy.

Ray Le Maistre, TelecomTV (00:22):
So Nik, can you just, we're two days into the show, can you tell us, have you seen any sort of overarching trends? Anything new you've seen from what you've heard in the past 48 hours?

Nik Willetts, TM Forum (00:34):
I think it's a big new air of optimism actually at this year's event. We reflected earlier in the econ how we've come from Code Red two years ago to seeing real progress in the industry and that optimism, as you know, for the TM Forum, it's all about seeing how are we going to get back to growth in this industry? So we're always on the lookout for what's coming, what's new, what's happening there. Two things. One is building the foundations for that growth, allowing us to experiment, deliver the velocity, the right customer experience, first rumblings of what does that mean in a six G world? We think that's a little bit premature because we've still got to figure it out to monetize 5G. But on that front, the discussion about sovereign AI and the role of operators in an AI world, I think it's now starting to be properly debated. So I wouldn't say there's necessarily an answer yet. And I think the recognition from the industry that this isn't about a single silver bullet, it's going to be about exposing our capabilities, partnering up, being able to actually expose what we can offer to others and then really understand our customer needs and translate those into new products. But overall, a bit more confidence in what might happen next and some exciting opportunities.

Ray Le Maistre, TelecomTV (01:39):
And obviously we're hearing a lot about AI and autonomous networks here, but I get the sense that the industry is starting to take a step back and really hone in on it, on data management and what data is required, where it might be processed, what it might be used for. Are you getting a sense from the industry and from your members that this is something that they're really focused on now and looking for the forum for some guidance on what can be done?

Nik Willetts, TM Forum (02:05):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, data, I think as we come out of what I think as the wild west phase of ai, we are really getting serious about how we did this at scale and data is just the foundation for that. There's lots of different issues with data management. One is it's sitting in proprietary systems and it may well be locked up in those, getting that data out. Then understanding that, interestingly, AI has a role in understanding what data's there. So those who are putting all that data into a big data lake using AI then to understand the types of data they have and how it interrelates. Getting that in real time is a big challenge. You don't need all that data in real time. A lot of it you can use in post-processing, but there's pieces that you do want in real time. So understanding the access to that.

(02:44):
A newer concern we're seeing, which relates to all of that is how we make sure that the intelligence data we build up in these AI models based on that data is also open and accessible to address all of that. What we're doing in the TM forum is a few things. We have a rich history in data management with things like the sid, the original information model that's being upgraded to what we call a modern data architecture of true data model that underpins all of our open APIs. We see that starting to pave the way to adopting AI more easily. We can use open APIs to make that data more accessible as well. And then this intelligence data question really how as we train AI models that may sit in vendor products, how do we make sure we can get that data out as well? Are starting to come into discussions about clear sets of principles about what telcos will want, what will be needed. I think on top of that, we've got this confusion and question about regulation and sovereignty. And as the geopolitical world we live in changes, how is that going to impact where operators need to have? For us, that boils down to optionality. You don't want lock-in to any particular vendor platform, data repository, data approach. Therefore common data approaches, language ontologies become super important. But at this stage, we're at the principal level without getting into really commonly agreed standards just yet.

Ray Le Maistre, TelecomTV (03:59):
And do you think there is enough commonality amongst the operators so that there's maybe 50, 60, 70% of the same kind of things for all the operators to be thinking about and looking at despite their diversity of markets and the approaches they're taking?

Nik Willetts, TM Forum (04:15):
Yeah, I think we already have that in pretty well established models like the information framework or SID that's been a bedrock of the industry for 20 years. So there is a level of commonality. The devil's in the detail with these things. So you may have something that's labeled the same thing, same bit of data, but is it measured in the same timeframe? For example? This is again where AI is quite helpful in understanding those nuances at scale. So actually, ironically, perhaps the solution to a lot of AI data problems can be ai, but we've got to train those models in the right way. Equally in this wild West era, everybody's had a bad experience, so everybody's taken data found it gives bizarre or hallucinated answers. A lot of those perceived hallucinations are actually bad data. So if you train, for example, on call center records, even we've seen examples like contracts, you feed those in and it assumes that you're giving it a rich set of the best data. So the challenge is surfacing, which is actually the best experience data or the best data for an example to train the ai, what to do, lots of different ways to attack that problem and lots of experimentation happening in things like our catalysts on that.

Ray Le Maistre, TelecomTV (05:21):
And then I just want to come back to, you mentioned at the beginning sort of optimism in the sector, and it was like almost two years ago that you called Code Red on the industry, only N 0.9% growth from $1 trillion of investment. Are we truly in a better place? Do we need to be calling Code Crimson now on the industry?

Nik Willetts, TM Forum (05:43):
We never believe that Code Red would just pass and it will be rosy two years later. So I think what we have to look at is signals of actual progress. For us, the Code RED moment was saying this is more than just looking for a new killer app or waiting for 5G monetization to come along, like waiting for a bus. We've actually got to reset how the industry does business. That starts for us in the TM forum with the ability to flexibly deliver the new services to tailor those services. We heard from T-Mobile this week that vision of where this needs to go in terms to be able to really personalized services. That requires a little of things we're doing in this forum in composable it, autonomous networks and so on, which has been a big discussion here. What we are encouraged by on that is that we see real progress towards those foundations that give us that flexibility.

(06:26):
We can also see a different toe. I think actually you've got to be optimistic about where growth can come from. So we're seeing operators around the world talking about their potential. We've seen Geo Insat redo T-Mobile again talking about the kinds of services they start to build sovereign ai. Still a big field to really understand and unpick the value in. But what I see is the difference is a commitment to sorting out the fundamentals of the operating model and the foundations of growth that are needed in each of the operative businesses. A focus in a lot of operators that wasn't there two years ago, and then a real commitment to getting it done. And behind that, behind closed doors, a bit more confidence in the value of what we can do as an industry. So there's an air of optimism we'll see in the next 24 months, whether that's founded on solid foundations.

Ray Le Maistre, TelecomTV (07:12):
I mean, are you really getting a sense of optimism that the operators think that there might be new business opportunities, new revenue streams that they can tap into because they've tried going into new markets, new verticals before, and it hasn't really worked out? Is it going to be different this time around?

Nik Willetts, TM Forum (07:29):
My belief is that AI is going to drive need for some of the things we've been creating in 5G and 5G advance. So if you think about the need of what's coming in 5G advanced of much higher uplink speeds, there's actually a need for that in an AI driven world. There's going to be a premium that can be attached to that. A lot's shifting in regulatory terms around the world, getting away from things like net neutrality that actually opens up more commercial potential. I think we're thinking more creatively as an industry. So I'd say that's there. I think on the investor perspective, much as they're paid to be forward looking, we're still dealing with metrics that are potentially outdated. We should look at measuring based on actual EBITDA growth rather than just the traditional RP metrics and so on. So there's a lot of nuances in that. I don't put total stock in just that view. I think we've got to satisfy the street and the markets, but we've got to also get a house in order first as an industry, and I really see that happening now.

Ray Le Maistre, TelecomTV (08:19):
Okay. Well, I mean I hope the optimism is well founded because obviously we still, we'll see more companies enjoying profitable growth and being able to share their experiences with the rest of the market. So I guess we'll come back here again next year and find out and see how that's progressed. So Nik, thanks very much for joining us today. Appreciate it.

Nik Willetts, TM Forum (08:40):
Looking forward to it. Thanks Ray.