Guy Daniels, TelecomTV (00:23):
Hello, you are watching the Cloud Native Telco Summit, part of our year-round DSP Leaders coverage, and it's time now for our live q and a show. I'm Guy Daniels and this is the second of two q and a shows. It's your final chance to ask questions on cloud-native strategies and their impact on telcos. Ask anything you want so long as it's cloud native and we will do our very best to provide answers. Now, as part of today's summit, we featured a panel discussion on how telcos can deliver operational excellence as they scale cloud native networks and processes. If you miss the panel, don't worry because we will rebroadcast it straight after this live q and a show or you can watch it anytime on demand. We've already received several questions from you, but if you haven't yet sent us one, then please do so now using the q and a form that you'll find on the website.

(01:28):
Well, I'm pleased to say that joining me live on the program today are Izzat Bamieh, who is VP of Engineering at Wavelo, Francis Haysom Principal Analyst with Appledore Research and Odded Solomon, Director of Product Management at VMware by Broadcom. Hello everyone. It's really good to see you all. Thanks so much for returning for this live q and a show. We really appreciate it. Now let's get straight to the first question that's been submitted by one of our viewers, and the question reads, which performance metrics and KPIs best inform executive decision making for cloud native operations? And Francis, can we come across to you for your comments first on this?

Francis Haysom, Appledore Research (02:18):
Yes. I think the important thing is to say cloud native is an approach. It's not the business. So in many senses, a lot of the existing KPIs within the business and in the different operational areas of the business will be the drivers of new cloud native initiatives. But I see two areas where new metrics or variance on the metrics come into play with cloud native. The first is with increasing software, a lot more becomes about how quickly software can get released, how quickly can you react to problems in the network that are derived from software, all of which are fundamentally underpinned by a lot of the cloud native operation operational benefits that you will get. The second area I think is we tend to think in silos in telcos, whether it's an assurance operations silo or planning silo, et cetera. I think one of the areas that cloud native gives is also the benefit of looking across the business. Where can cloud native improve what are actually currently quite often conflicts within the network, say between a planner that is looking to minimize capital expenditure on a network versus an assurance operations department that is looking to minimize the number of faults that occur in the network, some of which are quite often tied to lack of capacity in some areas.

(03:59):
Can cloud native actually act as a means to optimize both of those and take them forward? We're doing a lot of work at the moment in terms of digital twins at the moment and looking at maybe how digital twins can enable different KPIs to be balanced across the organization. So that's where I would see its existing KPIs, its new software KPIs and it's looking at how the conflict in KPIs across the organization will drive things.

Guy Daniels, TelecomTV (04:30):
Yeah, thanks very much indeed, Francis. This is interesting, isn't it, about whether there are new metrics and KPIs or preexisting ones and where that balance is and where the conflicts, as you say, arise Odded come across to you as well. What are your thoughts on this?

Odded Solomon, VMware by Broadcom (04:43):
Yeah, so I agree that the change is difficult and the lead time to change and the frequency of the updates into the networks are something that needs to be measured. There are some telcos that are more successful in introducing more frequent changes and there are some that are less successful in doing that. It does require a process change across multiple departments and reacting differently to different type of application vendors. Some application vendors are more aligned with frequent changes and some of the application vendors are more laid back and require a long-term support for Kubernetes and it'll take a while for them to upgrade. So I think that the successful organization should measure how frequently can changes be basically executed on the network. And of course in order to achieve that, the infrastructure as code needs to be measured, how much percentage of the infrastructure is automated, and of course that helps overall with the adoption of the cloud native infrastructure management and application. All these changes introduces risks into the platform. So indeed detecting issues that are a result of an updated or update to the infrastructure is something that needs to be measured as well. I think that combining observability tools with GitHubs and Argo CD way of deployment are going to increase the chances for telcos to successfully manage their infrastructure and applications in a cloud native manner.

Guy Daniels, TelecomTV (06:35):
Great, thanks. So there had some great examples there. Thanks for sharing those. Okay, let's move on to our next viewer question then this question's from, actually it's from one of our former regular guests, so welcome back Beth, and she asks, what does the panel think is the cloud native approach that will deliver the best return on investment for telecom's operators? The ROI question Izzat, can we come to you for your thoughts on this one?

Izzat Bamieh, Wavelo (07:06):
Yeah, of course. For telecom operators, the cloud native approach with the best ROI is the one that balances platform efficiency with agility by adapting tools like container orchestration tools such as Kubernete or that helps with reducing the waste on cloud native spaces and also those tools are not all about and of course adopting Microsoft versus architecture, stuff like that. These tools are not all about cost saving, they're also about the ability to launch differentiated services really quickly to the market.

Guy Daniels, TelecomTV (07:53):
Absolutely. Thank you very much indeed for insight. Izzat and Francis, we'll come to you as well.

Francis Haysom, Appledore Research (07:59):
I think it's an important thing, cloud native, actually there's really two things about cloud native. One is one of which is the process of delivering cloud native software and one another is an architecture. Both of those aren't actually something that the telco necessarily is directly their business. So I think it's important any ROI for the telco has to start with the business problem we're trying to solve. It's very easy to see cloud native as like a panel here for everything that we do cloud native at the end of the day, the whole cloud native containerization, it's a software architecture, it has some benefits, it has some penalties as well in terms of its introduction, so it's important that we understand what is it we're trying to solve. Has that made a very important thing. If we're looking for agility, for example, in delivering new services or delivering new forms of network capability for example, then we want to adopt cloud native because we should be very clear what are the benefits of being able to deliver new services or new value added services that cloud native, that a cloud native architecture or a cloud native process can deliver.

(09:15):
So I would really reiterate the important thing is actually to start with what is the business problem? What is it we're trying to solve and that will necessarily drive ROI benefit and it will drive particularly architectural choices and operational operationalizing those architectural choices.

Guy Daniels, TelecomTV (09:35):
Yeah, thanks very much Francis. Important consideration there. Thanks for that. And Odded, let's come across to you.

Odded Solomon, VMware by Broadcom (09:41):
Yeah, so first I want to touch a topic that might be a little bit sensitive in this industry and this is the skillset that is needed to run cloud native workloads and infrastructure. I think as an industry we need to embrace the fact that DevOps type of talent is very difficult to hire on the network side of the cloud, but breaking the silo between the IT organization and the network cloud organization within Telco, hiring people with cloud native skillset that may be more expensive, but with the smaller teams you can achieve much more with the right set of skills. I think this can contribute a lot into the acceleration and what is needed because we have to admit the reality. The reality is that cloud native architecture is there because it's becoming like a standard. Developers are now shipping software with cloud native architecture and this became the way to deliver and ship new software and we need to adapt. So we need to hire the right talent to do it even if we have to pay more for those top talents. But again, I think that the ROI will be there if we are making the right investment in the right place.

Guy Daniels, TelecomTV (11:03):
Great. Thanks very much Odded. Interesting you brought up skills and skill sets because that's one of the choices we're asking our viewers in our poll and we're going to have a look at the voting of that very, very soon and we will see what our audience think about the challenges of skills. Right. Before we get to the poll though, let's bring on another question from our audience and our next question is are there any differences in how you align budgets, resource planning and vendor agreements to support ongoing cloud native initiatives compared to legacy relationships? And again, the legacy issue is also one of the poll choices which we'll get to soon, but Odded, I'm going to come back to you. What thoughts do you have? Can you help our viewer with this question?

Odded Solomon, VMware by Broadcom (11:55):
So I'm on the vendor side of the house so I can give you a very narrow perspective. Although I've been working for multiple vendors in my career, I think that IOPS is the biggest challenge that we have in the industry and when telcos are looking to integrate multiple applications on let's say the horizontal cloud infrastructure, they need to really understand the approach that each of the vendors have with this particular cloud infrastructure. They might learn that there is a lot of work and a lot of investment that is being made by the vendors in order to support or successfully support cloud native applications.

(12:47):
I think that the telcos needs to engage in three-way discussions between the different players in the ecosystem and to really go beyond the market teams, the sales guys and really reach out to the business unit that are collaborating quite well within the ecosystem and adding more resources into the interops and making sure that the validation cycle are successful with the specific configurations and topologies that the customers choose to implement. This is really important to align between the three ways and I think the right way to do it is to engage more directly with the product units and the engineering teams in the ecosystem.

Guy Daniels, TelecomTV (13:33):
Thanks very much. Much appreciated. And Francis, did you want to add some views and thoughts on this one?

Francis Haysom, Appledore Research (13:38):
Yeah, I think the important thing is to recognize the cloud native, and we talked about two different areas here, but in terms of the operational process of delivering cloud native software, its benefits are largely to do with agility and innovation and it works best if you've got a collaborative open environment between both the CSP as a customer and the various vendors in that system to make it work, you have to make it more than a kind of zero sum game. Now, there are very valid reasons why telcos quite often in terms of their procurement look to get what I would term is insurance in terms of what the delivered solution is. But if you're looking for an insurance, you are an intrinsically binding up the whole process of cloud native to make it far more likely to be waterfall risk averse in terms of delivering software or in terms of sharing information in that software.

(14:46):
So if you want the cloud native approach to work properly, you've got to be thinking about in which you can enable that. And importantly, you've also got to understand that all of the risks cannot be just assigned to your vendor intrinsically in making this work. You are intrinsically taking on some of the risk and you need to build yourself into that process. It can work in other areas and parts of the networks, maybe particularly the hardware, more hardware centric part of the network. It might be you don't want a cloud native approach, you want a much more rigorous insured approach and there's nothing wrong with that, but understand that there are pros and cons to both approaches.

Guy Daniels, TelecomTV (15:31):
Great. Thanks very much Francis. Good advice there. Right. Well before we get onto our next question from our audience, let's check in on our viewer poll for the cloud native Telco summit. The question we are asking this week is cloud native can deliver substantial benefits to telcos, but what are the main challenges to its adoption? And you can see the real time votes appearing right here to my right and it looks like integration with legacy systems still is the main challenge followed by organization and cultural transformation and perhaps surprisingly not too many concerns over talent scarcity, which is I think different from last year. Very interesting. Well if you have yet to vote then you are running out of time. We are keeping the polls open until the end of the week and then we'll analyze the results and reveal the final figures next week here on telecom tv. Okay, back to our audience questions then, and here's one from a viewer who asks, I am seeing less direct investment from telcos and vendors in the open source community. Does the panel agree and if it does, how else can companies support the OS community? Interesting question. Odded, have you got views on the relationship with telecom's companies and the open source community and how it's changing?

Odded Solomon, VMware by Broadcom (17:15):
Yeah, so I think we see more and more commercial license based product that may impact the perception that open source is not being leveraged, utilized or vendors that are not contributing enough. So in fact, I do think that there is a lot of work that is being done in the ecosystem for open source. I think that influencing the release cadence of Kubernetes, the long-term support of Kubernetes specific features and functionality that is needed in order to support telco workloads, this work is being done and I think at least I can speak to it from my perspective working for my company. We are in the top five list of contributors to the open source community and I think this is a testimonial of the commitment and the level of influence that we have for the cloud native initiatives. Now in addition to that, we have announced a partnership, a collaboration with Canonical Ubuntu is going to be integrated into our telco stack.

(18:36):
As you know, canonical is an open source company headquarters here in the uk. I'm actually meeting them today as well on this topic. And we are looking for ways to increase our collaboration with the open source community and I think this is open source can be done right by leveraging best of both worlds. So we have a go-to market, a powerful cloud infrastructure that can deliver capabilities that combined with the open source community, the power that we can inherit from our partnership with Canonical as an open source company, we can influence this community further and bring more features, more capabilities and more telco native features into the infrastructure. So I think that the ecosystem, the partnerships, we as a vendor, the ecosystems we're working with the napps obviously and their requirements and how to ensure that those requirements are being integrated into the cloud infrastructure. Working with an open source vendor such as Canonical can help us push a lot of the requirements upstream and basically align with the rest of the community.

Guy Daniels, TelecomTV (19:57):
Good to hear Odded, thanks very much for those updates and Francis, let's come across to you as well.

Francis Haysom, Appledore Research (20:03):
Yeah, I'm going to take a slightly sideways look at this one. For the last two years I've been going attending the Q Con event both in Paris last year and London this year, and it's a fascinating community. It's like for me, coming from a telecommunications show and conference background and vendor to a degree, it's like a breath of fresh air, it's full of developers developing and collaborating, some crazy projects, some extending projects, some iterations of projects, things just happening on the floor in the show. It's a very exciting environment. I think the important point to make about this is open source is not simply about consuming open source, we're all consuming open source all the time, but really getting the benefit of open source is about that collaboration and participation in the various organizations of open source. Honestly, from a telco point of view in Paris last year I had to explain why I was there.

(21:14):
It was literally along the lines of telco, telco, who I think London, it was a lot better this year. There is some involvement of telco and particularly in terms of the Kamara initiative and open sourcing it, but if I had to say anything, I'm not saying it's going to be a perfect thing, but for anybody in Telco really wanting to understand cloud native or cloud native approaches, go to one of these shows, just breathe in the air, breathe in, breathe, breathe in the atmosphere at these events. It's a very exciting area and I think it will give anybody in Telco a better idea of what open source is and what it can contribute to you as a telco and ultimately hopefully go and contribute and go and collaborate in these environments.

Guy Daniels, TelecomTV (22:03):
Great. Thanks very much Francis. I can endorse that. And I'd just like to also say that we have an interview with Philippe and Sge from Orange and that's on the summit today, day two, you can see that on demand. You can watch that after this if you'd like. And he talks about Kon and he mentions that the next Kon next year we'll see a much larger presence for its cloud native telco day about twice the size of the London. So that's encouraging and we don't mind that to use our name. Hey, open source cloud native Telco. We're happy with that, but please watch the interview later and as Francis says, it's a good event to go to and see what's going on from the developer community. Right. Let's have a look at some of the other questions that we are getting in from our audience is another one we have just received. How do you see cloud native backup tools in the telco space addressing in particular the near edge and far edge workloads? Interesting. Izzat, can we come across to you and get your thoughts on this one?

Izzat Bamieh, Wavelo (23:06):
Yeah, of course. So the best strategy here is basically to push that intelligence really closer to the customer behavior. Of course this is coupled with a microservice architecture where you can bring some of that behavior closer to the customer, like near edge of course, all about near edge is basically latency is sensitive stuff like video chatting capabilities or getting your balance, your bill amount balance, stuff like that stuff needs to be real time and then push the stuff that are not real time such as port in or port out stuff that happened in the background to the far edge, which is not as sensitive to low latency. If you have a microservice architecture that empowers you to do that, that would be really simple for you to push some of those services in a different data centers to achieve the right strategy for backup and business continuity.

Guy Daniels, TelecomTV (24:23):
Great, thanks very much Zi on that one about cloud native backup tools. Francis, your views on backup tools?

Francis Haysom, Appledore Research (24:34):
I'll be a little bit more generic on this one and really it's more in reference to actually the previous question about open source. I think we need to recognize as telcos we actually have a huge amount of expertise and understanding of distributed problems, distributed data problems, moving data from far edge into the edge. That's inherently a network problem. There's a huge amount of experience within telco and the telco vendor community in that kind of area. It's also important to recognize there's lots of distributed problems of backup and distribution of source code out to the various areas within the enterprise community, within the open source community. It sounds far more to me like a kind of let's leverage the best of both and it may potentially be that you solve this problem by collaborating, bringing telco requirements into the wider problem of distribution, distribution and cloud native, cloud native software and bringing it together. It's a problem telco's been solving. It's a problem that telco can contribute to. It's a problem that enterprise is already solving and bring the best of both from both worlds.

Guy Daniels, TelecomTV (25:49):
Great. Thanks Van. Just yes, collaborate. Let's collaborate. Thank you very much Ian Francis for those comments. Let's have a look at what else is coming in from our audience. There's another question here. Do you see any regional differences in cloud native appetite across operators at the moment? Odded from your perspectives as a vendor, are you seeing differences depending on where you are in the world?

Odded Solomon, VMware by Broadcom (26:18):
Yeah, I think it's a great question. I think that there is first of all the culture of the different regions. So we see more conservative regions that are also conservative in adopting cloud native. So we see that in the A page J market for example, slower to move, slower to experiment, but very, very quality driven and quality focused. So I'm not saying that there is no appetite there, but taking more caution steps. Then for example on the European market we see more experiments, more bold moves obviously depending also on the size of the operator and how critical the applications are. But we see more experimenting, more appetite to actually build things own things. And then in the Americas it's about scale and processes and how to adapt at a major scale and how to basically be able to accommodate to frequent changes at scale. So I think that the appetite is quite different. I think it's based on the size of the operator that determines the scale, the complexities of how many markets the operator has to operate in depending on the applications that the operator is deploying as cloud-native network functions. And then there is obviously the cultural mindset of where the operator is managing the networks, some being more conservative, some more experimenting and so on. So this is what I see, it's quite diverse.

Guy Daniels, TelecomTV (28:11):
Great, thanks very much for explaining that. Odded and Francis, are you seeing a similar situation?

Francis Haysom, Appledore Research (28:19):
I think it's more of a directional thing. I think this is quite important in this area is the whole idea and increase in the need for sovereign cloud. Here you are seeing in a lot of particularly non-US jurisdictions, a lot of need to tune and align the cloud native goals with the ability to retain sovereignty in terms of data on that cloud. And I think that's going to be an increasing driver and background to the whole choice of both cloud native operations but also cloud native architectures.

Guy Daniels, TelecomTV (29:03):
Great. Thanks very much Francis. Let's move on then if there's no more comments. Let's move on to another question from the audience. Might get a couple more questions in here. What suggestions can the panel explore to achieve true multi-vendor interoperability and avoid vendor lockin in a cloud native environment? Okay, so a question we've similar questions we've received in previous summits, Odded, are you able to maybe have a go at this one first and help our viewer?

Odded Solomon, VMware by Broadcom (29:40):
Yeah, so I think that the ecosystem is investing a lot of effort in interops. I mentioned it in the previous comment with some of the partners. We have investment of hundreds of engineers and hundreds of servers managing multiple pipelines and making sure that everything is running as expected. But the reality on the ground is that when we actually deploy the application in the telco environment, we see that it is not a hundred percent exactly configured and the traffic pattern may be different compared to what we're testing with the partners. So there is a continuous learning and feedback loop that we are engaging with the customers and the partners to make sure that first we are accommodating the lab configuration to what the customers are actually deploying. And second of all, we need also the customers to have a round of testing before they actually deploy the application.

(30:51):
I think that there is a philosophical debate about whether we need to go and be more prescriptive in how we deploy the cloud infrastructure and the cloud native applications versus having a horizontal approach that is allowing more flexibility and more choices. I think between the two, there is no one size fits all. I mean every operator has their own needs and requirements. In some cases the flexibility is there in some cases the prescriptive approaches is the right one. I personally think that large operators that have a very diverse market needs will be very challenged by the fact that local entities want to repurpose hardware configuration and they have their own regulator bodies that impose certain network topologies and configuration. And I think that the flexibility is key requirement and this is why the telcos themselves needs to step up. Some of them needs to step up and basically take a more active role in designing the solutioning the solution, dimensioning it, sizing it, and be more responsible for the outcome. This is what we see. But I think overall the investment in the ecosystem and the interops is quite significant and heavy, especially with the bigger players in the industry.

Guy Daniels, TelecomTV (32:22):
Yeah, interesting. Yeah, thanks very much Ed for that. And Francis will come to you as well.

Francis Haysom, Appledore Research (32:28):
Yeah, I see two areas in this area and we recently did some work in what we term the lab to live with Spiron is that a lot of the shift actually in terms of the agile lifecycle that you want with a cloud native solution, an interoperability between various solutions in that one comes down to you are making a much more complicated interacting piece than you have typically done when you've bought a piece of hardware for example. So actually the number of combinations of things that talked about which is that you suddenly need to be a lot more combinations the whole test cycle moving from just simply testing in the lab in terms of lots of combinations of things and maybe dare I say also some degree of chaos testing. What could happen, what are different scenarios that could be tested in terms of the live use come into play.

(33:29):
So there's a lot more work and building on that whole, what does tended to be a kind of, there's a lab environment and there's a live environment that becomes actually part of the agile cloud native deployment strategy for you. The second area I would highlight is that some of, we talked about open source earlier, a lot of the ways in which we've always tended to deal with interoperability is through standards. Here is the standard by which this interacts with that. That's a very different environment to the way interfaces, interoperability is found within maybe open source communities where it's a lot more iterative and collaborative and isn't necessarily a standard before. It's maybe a standard that evolves out of that one and telco is already doing that. If you look at things like the open ran fronthaul, companies like Rakuten Mobile for example, actually created an open fronthaul way before standards existed for that within in the open ran environment. And we potentially need to look at that a lot more is the in fact interfaces and interoperability actually may be much more of a collaborative effort of both sides working together than it is simply a kind of we meet to the standard.

Guy Daniels, TelecomTV (34:48):
Great. Thanks very much indeed, Francis. And I think we've probably got time for a couple more quick questions that have just come in in the past 30 minutes or so. There's one here that Izzat, I think this might be ideal for your expertise here and the question asks, is it possible to transform business processes and systems to cloud native without causing major existing disruption? So as no point of anyone who's maybe just looking at cloud native now, perhaps can they do it without major disruption?

Izzat Bamieh, Wavelo (35:22):
Yes, of course, definitely. We at Wave Low went through that ourself. We went from being on on-prem and we slowly transformed to cloud native. Everything now runs in native and yes, definitely there is a path forward to do that, but the key here is to do it slowly but surely, avoid major left and shift. Because remember, you are migrating something that operating that's generating all money. So take your time, plan it right, and slowly start to build, divide your architecture into multiple small pieces and start with the smallest one that has the lowest impact in any customer behavior. And start with that. Learn from this, apply the learning to the next workflow and the next one and the next one after. Even if that takes years, that's okay, take your time. This is avoiding major disruption to the business is your goal here, right? A lot of companies I worked with in the past, they were rushing this process and it caused huge impact on the customer service, which of course cost the business a lot of money, but this project needs, you need to take your time, start with the smallest, divide your architecture into small modular pieces, start with the one that has the lowest impact on any customer and then start with learn from it, apply to the one after one after and leave the ones that are highest impact, like the one that generates most of the revenue to the last because this is where you're going to learn and you're going to be in a better position to handle them later on.

Guy Daniels, TelecomTV (37:22):
Great. Thanks. Thanks for that advice. That's great. And Francis, have you got more advice as to whether or not you can make this transformation without disruption?

Francis Haysom, Appledore Research (37:31):
The honest answer is transformation does require some form of disruption. Transformation. The question is if you don't want something changed, then why are you making the change? I just focus in on what we need to look at in terms of making this successful. The question somewhat seems to predicate on the basis that the existing process is perfect and I think that's where you start, which is the existing process is not perfect. If it was perfect, you don't need to change anything. So successful transformation is about focusing on changing that. That is actually not working correctly at the moment using cloud native or some elements of cloud native approach to tackle the real problem areas, the operational problem areas that you'd face today, whether that's in the operational environment or whether that's in terms of introducing new code into networks, et cetera. So I'd say focus on this. If everything is perfect, stay where you are, there's not a problem. But if you know where the problems are, focus those as the first key step and make it iterative. Don't make it a complete sort of big bang transformation. They never work.

Guy Daniels, TelecomTV (38:46):
Absolutely. Yeah, we've seen too many of them. Francis, thank you very much for those comments. And Odded, let's come across to you as well.

Odded Solomon, VMware by Broadcom (38:52):
I think the industry is already disrupted by the cloud native change. I think that everyone got a little bit comfortable or too comfortable with VNF and then CNFs came along and now ai. I think the change is something that is happening all the time. Telcos really need to accelerate and adapt to the change far more quickly. I think that it is possible, again, going back to the processes, comments that we all made earlier and the talent and so on. I think it is possible, but change is inevitable and disruption is already happening.

Guy Daniels, TelecomTV (39:35):
Absolutely. Yeah, quite right. Thanks very much everyone for those comments. Well, we've got time for probably one quick final question and it's a question about skills. And the question is on the question of skills, is there any advantage in a telco having in-house skills and recruiting new talent, or should they lean more onto their vendor and solution partners for this expertise? Ed, I'm going to come to you first if I can, because you did pick up on the subject of skills and the need to recruit. So is there a need for telcos to have that ability themselves?

Odded Solomon, VMware by Broadcom (40:16):
I think the answer is absolutely okay. I think that telcos really need to step up and rebuild, restructure their organizations, converge the IT and the networking team, making sure that the silos are broken and DevOps approaches and SRE and all those buzzwords that we're hearing from the IT world infiltrating into the network way of operating. Yes, I think that there are unique requirements on the network side of the cloud. The regulation is difficult, especially here in the uk. I'm happen to be in London now, so the regulation is a key theme here and that impacts the ability to lifecycle introduced changes and so on. So yes, there are some challenges, but I think that bringing the top talent from the IT industry to solve these challenges is something that telcos really need to engage in, less rely on vendors such as SI and basically take the step to becoming more and more of an SI themselves.

Guy Daniels, TelecomTV (41:26):
There we go. That's a good positive way to end our show. I think that should just about wrap it up for today. We are coming up to the end of the show, so thank you so much to all three of you for joining us for this live program, and that is a wrap for this year's cloud native Telco summit. Thank you to those of you who submitted questions. We tried to cover as many as we could in the limited time available. You can watch all of the programs from this year's summit on demand from our website featuring this incredible lineup of industry experts, panels, interviews, q and as, and of course our annual poll. Thanks to all of our speakers and sponsors and viewers for supporting the DSP Leaders Summit series. Now next month we are on the road. I'll be hosting the AI Native Telco forum from Dusseldorf. Yes, the team is heading to Germany for our latest in-person event, and I do hope you can join us there, but if not, you can watch our live broadcast on October the 23rd and October the 24th. Full details are on our website and for those viewers watching us live, we're going to broadcast today's panel discussion immediately after this program. So don't go away. Please join us next month for coverage of the AI Native Telco forum, live from Dusseldorf. For now, thank you for watching and goodbye.